Few people have bashed microsoft as badly as I have done. In private. I have literally hated windows for a lifetime. It's my "go to" for anger management! Mainly when I couldn't get some code to work. I smiled a lot at that pre-stream where Casey said he was just hoping for someone to come and "wipe them out". aahhaah. how many times I didn't say the same or worse, to myself in my own living room :D
But recently, after testing many other OSes, .. I've come to the conclusion that the reason we dont have anything better, is that noone is ABLE to do any better.
I mean literally able to. I mean physically able to. It's impossible to do it better. In theory, yes, perhaps. But in reality, it's not. I think that the reason we bash windows, is that we don't understand how the hardware works. How the caches works, and how it's not windows making our code slow, it is mostly we, ourselfes. Seen how fast a windows program starts if it's small? It is instant! What happens between then and you adding code? It gets slow, because you have not only destroyed the cache usage of you own app, but that of Windows as well.
There's not even ONE os that isn't in practice like 10-100 times slower then windows. Linux. Jesus. It's a disaster! The updates crash, and then the reporter to report the crash, crashes. In addition everything comes with like 8-10 seconds of latency for just starting an application, or opening a folder. For the about 2 real applications to even work in this OS. Once they run, I guess it's not extremely horrible. After all, I use one now. Firefox. It works pretty much the same in Linux as in Windows.
But I don't see ANY reason that it would be easier to cope with Linux development than with Windows development. Not even the ethical aspects of the debate count anymore. GPL shit the bed. Like everyone with a brain KNEW that they would. You are retarded if you believe in politics, religion and so on.(Same shit). And the GPL-congregation come off like a shitload of religious fools.
There's only one law of the universe, and that is :What works! And all other ideas are utterly pathetic from every possible point of view. Windows WORKS. It's not perfect. But neither is anything else. And the difference between windows and the next best OS is not like half the usability. Its more like 100 times the usability. In Linux the argument is that it can be made to work. HERE: just recompile the kernel. In Windows, most things have worked well for more then 20 years.
It's the best that can be, because it is the best that there is. You can't do better. Nobody can. If they could, they OF COURSE would! If you don't see that you're missing the big picture.
If you complain about updates, and about .NET and so on, I am all with you. But I think those are technologies that sell to morons, because, well, let morons have it. After all they don't count. Except being an easy milkcow. And if you can milk them dry, and maybe protect the world from them having another offspring. Everyone wins right? :D *I'm kidding*
No, but you see Windows is in fact not only the best alternative we actually got. But it is also VERY VERY GOOD, on it's own terms. People who says windows is slow, simply don't know what they are talking about. They think it slow, just because they are ignorant to how you make things run fast. And they underestimate the problems that comes with scaling dataprograms in a way that mistreat the CPU caches.
Or?
But recently, after testing many other OSes, .. I've come to the conclusion that the reason we dont have anything better, is that noone is ABLE to do any better.
I mean literally able to. I mean physically able to. It's impossible to do it better. In theory, yes, perhaps. But in reality, it's not. I think that the reason we bash windows, is that we don't understand how the hardware works. How the caches works, and how it's not windows making our code slow, it is mostly we, ourselfes. Seen how fast a windows program starts if it's small? It is instant! What happens between then and you adding code? It gets slow, because you have not only destroyed the cache usage of you own app, but that of Windows as well.
There's not even ONE os that isn't in practice like 10-100 times slower then windows. Linux. Jesus. It's a disaster! The updates crash, and then the reporter to report the crash, crashes. In addition everything comes with like 8-10 seconds of latency for just starting an application, or opening a folder. For the about 2 real applications to even work in this OS. Once they run, I guess it's not extremely horrible. After all, I use one now. Firefox. It works pretty much the same in Linux as in Windows.
But I don't see ANY reason that it would be easier to cope with Linux development than with Windows development. Not even the ethical aspects of the debate count anymore. GPL shit the bed. Like everyone with a brain KNEW that they would. You are retarded if you believe in politics, religion and so on.(Same shit). And the GPL-congregation come off like a shitload of religious fools.
There's only one law of the universe, and that is :What works! And all other ideas are utterly pathetic from every possible point of view. Windows WORKS. It's not perfect. But neither is anything else. And the difference between windows and the next best OS is not like half the usability. Its more like 100 times the usability. In Linux the argument is that it can be made to work. HERE: just recompile the kernel. In Windows, most things have worked well for more then 20 years.
It's the best that can be, because it is the best that there is. You can't do better. Nobody can. If they could, they OF COURSE would! If you don't see that you're missing the big picture.
If you complain about updates, and about .NET and so on, I am all with you. But I think those are technologies that sell to morons, because, well, let morons have it. After all they don't count. Except being an easy milkcow. And if you can milk them dry, and maybe protect the world from them having another offspring. Everyone wins right? :D *I'm kidding*
No, but you see Windows is in fact not only the best alternative we actually got. But it is also VERY VERY GOOD, on it's own terms. People who says windows is slow, simply don't know what they are talking about. They think it slow, just because they are ignorant to how you make things run fast. And they underestimate the problems that comes with scaling dataprograms in a way that mistreat the CPU caches.
Or?
You and your caches :)
While Windows works fine with me (with a lot of help from FAR Manager + ConEmu) and I've been using Windows for a very long time (since 3.1), Linux also works pretty well for me. I was and am doing pretty large project using clang and llvm, and on Linux compilation of whole clang/llvm toolchain takes something like 2 to 3 times faster than on Windows (with same version of compiler). On same machine. That's pretty good. And not only compilation is fast. GUI is also better in performance. For example - when I have locked Windows screen (the one where you need to press Ctrl+Alt+Del to login), that takes a second or two to switch back to desktop. On Linux I have option to not use feature bloated Desktop Environment, I use minimalistic window manager i3, all it does it shows windows, not manages icons, start menu, etc... So on Linux that is instant for me. When you read how low-level Linux developers optimize OS (like this one) you really see that they care about performance. Lately I think that MS cares mostly about eye-candy.
Not sure why you have such a bad experience in Linux. And how you describe, the problems you are having is not with Linux, but with Linux applications (even GUI environment is just an another application in Linux). You shouldn't blame OS because somebody wrote shitty software. That happens on Windows. But I think that main difficulty in Linux is that most "user-friendly" distributions are not so friendly for developers after all, it takes time to learn and configure your OS, so it works the best it can for you. And the good thing is that Linux allows you to do that, compared to other closed-source systems. Nothing had been crashing for me on Linux unless I mess something up myself. I tend to use ArchLinux which is minimalistic, and requires you to configure a lot of stuff manually in command-line rather than GUI click/click kind of configuration like Ubuntu. So as long as you configure everything right, everything will work right.
And why would GPL bother you? As long as you are not developing some software that depends on GPL libraries you are fine. You can use GPL tools (like gcc) during development without any concern. You have always freedom to not use GPL, you are not forced to use it if you want to use Linux.
Of course, as Casey has mentioned few times, the debugging experience is not so good on Linux. And I agree. MSVC currently is most usable debugger in my experience. Hopefully RAD Debugger Project or ProDBG (from Daniel Collin) will fix this.
While Windows works fine with me (with a lot of help from FAR Manager + ConEmu) and I've been using Windows for a very long time (since 3.1), Linux also works pretty well for me. I was and am doing pretty large project using clang and llvm, and on Linux compilation of whole clang/llvm toolchain takes something like 2 to 3 times faster than on Windows (with same version of compiler). On same machine. That's pretty good. And not only compilation is fast. GUI is also better in performance. For example - when I have locked Windows screen (the one where you need to press Ctrl+Alt+Del to login), that takes a second or two to switch back to desktop. On Linux I have option to not use feature bloated Desktop Environment, I use minimalistic window manager i3, all it does it shows windows, not manages icons, start menu, etc... So on Linux that is instant for me. When you read how low-level Linux developers optimize OS (like this one) you really see that they care about performance. Lately I think that MS cares mostly about eye-candy.
Not sure why you have such a bad experience in Linux. And how you describe, the problems you are having is not with Linux, but with Linux applications (even GUI environment is just an another application in Linux). You shouldn't blame OS because somebody wrote shitty software. That happens on Windows. But I think that main difficulty in Linux is that most "user-friendly" distributions are not so friendly for developers after all, it takes time to learn and configure your OS, so it works the best it can for you. And the good thing is that Linux allows you to do that, compared to other closed-source systems. Nothing had been crashing for me on Linux unless I mess something up myself. I tend to use ArchLinux which is minimalistic, and requires you to configure a lot of stuff manually in command-line rather than GUI click/click kind of configuration like Ubuntu. So as long as you configure everything right, everything will work right.
And why would GPL bother you? As long as you are not developing some software that depends on GPL libraries you are fine. You can use GPL tools (like gcc) during development without any concern. You have always freedom to not use GPL, you are not forced to use it if you want to use Linux.
Of course, as Casey has mentioned few times, the debugging experience is not so good on Linux. And I agree. MSVC currently is most usable debugger in my experience. Hopefully RAD Debugger Project or ProDBG (from Daniel Collin) will fix this.
Edited by Mārtiņš Možeiko
on
I think it is not true that nobody is able to do better, because Microsoft themselves used to be the better. Windows NT 3.51 was f'ing awesome. What we really need is a company that is committed to OS development the way the 3.51 team was, and then we need to keep everyone else the hell away from them :P
- Casey
- Casey
Edited by Casey Muratori
on
What I am saying is, that there is nothing in Windows that stops you from writing amazing fast software. Except time, and dedication.
The day that is no longer true, I change my opinion.
When everything is in its normal state, on windows, and you coded a performant app, it will run like a bat out of hell.
When I click the System Settings icon, in Linux, it takes 4,5 seconds to show up. That's like 12-16 BILLION CYCLES! Chromium takes 8+ seconds. Libre Office, 7 seconds. And so on.
In Windows, I compile my source, which is 40000 functions, in like less than 1 second.
It takes much less than 1 second to start my compiler. So I can compile and run my game, long before almost anything else in windows is even ready, loading. You would perceive it as less then a second to start the compiler, run the game, and load the gamestate. I don't need a hotloading DLL. That's how fast windows is!
And now my game, that I started when Casey introduced the Tilemap, is actually pretty far along. 10K lines for the gamecode alone. Just tonight I almost got to finish an amazingly simple pathfinder, before I got to tired to think, and a minimap in my game came as a result of that, in case this gives someone a hint. A solution that is just incredible efficient, and that popped into my head while I was trying to catch some sleep. All thanks to amazingly fast Windows API code infact. I could kiss those guys who wrote it.
Coding a game has caused me to be sleep deprived while it has been such an delightful month, so I am more or less a wreck right now. I wonder if I had been trying a game if it was not for handmade hero. Chances are I would not have. But it feels good to be a wreck like this.
And you know what? The game runs just as well in the Windows Virtual PC, using XP too. With sounds and everything. Yeah, my bitmaps was gone, but I just use 2. You think all of this this would be possible on Linux? Do not make me laugh.
It's not windows which is the problem. Window is very fast.
What is the problem is time. It takes time to make things fast. And by that I mean lot's of testing. Rewriting, and restructuring of code and data. Experience, and serious willingness to let go of older, slower code. But if you do that, all your code with the exception of highIO code can run in what appear instant.
But Windows is not what is stopping us!
There are exceptions. Copying from GetDC(0) or from iswapchain.getfrontbufferdata is incredibly slow! So slow that one would wonder if it was not done purposefully. That kind of shit is things that I hate.
But we all know, that it IS possible, somehow. OBS does it, FRAPS does it, and others. On Linux it takes 3 seconds just to start the notepad, 2 seconds for the calculator, that is the worst of shit, haha. 2 Seconds for a linuxprompt! What kind of hardware you have that makes this faster?
In Windows it is instant even on dogslow hardware.
The day that is no longer true, I change my opinion.
When everything is in its normal state, on windows, and you coded a performant app, it will run like a bat out of hell.
When I click the System Settings icon, in Linux, it takes 4,5 seconds to show up. That's like 12-16 BILLION CYCLES! Chromium takes 8+ seconds. Libre Office, 7 seconds. And so on.
In Windows, I compile my source, which is 40000 functions, in like less than 1 second.
It takes much less than 1 second to start my compiler. So I can compile and run my game, long before almost anything else in windows is even ready, loading. You would perceive it as less then a second to start the compiler, run the game, and load the gamestate. I don't need a hotloading DLL. That's how fast windows is!
And now my game, that I started when Casey introduced the Tilemap, is actually pretty far along. 10K lines for the gamecode alone. Just tonight I almost got to finish an amazingly simple pathfinder, before I got to tired to think, and a minimap in my game came as a result of that, in case this gives someone a hint. A solution that is just incredible efficient, and that popped into my head while I was trying to catch some sleep. All thanks to amazingly fast Windows API code infact. I could kiss those guys who wrote it.
Coding a game has caused me to be sleep deprived while it has been such an delightful month, so I am more or less a wreck right now. I wonder if I had been trying a game if it was not for handmade hero. Chances are I would not have. But it feels good to be a wreck like this.
And you know what? The game runs just as well in the Windows Virtual PC, using XP too. With sounds and everything. Yeah, my bitmaps was gone, but I just use 2. You think all of this this would be possible on Linux? Do not make me laugh.
It's not windows which is the problem. Window is very fast.
What is the problem is time. It takes time to make things fast. And by that I mean lot's of testing. Rewriting, and restructuring of code and data. Experience, and serious willingness to let go of older, slower code. But if you do that, all your code with the exception of highIO code can run in what appear instant.
But Windows is not what is stopping us!
There are exceptions. Copying from GetDC(0) or from iswapchain.getfrontbufferdata is incredibly slow! So slow that one would wonder if it was not done purposefully. That kind of shit is things that I hate.
But we all know, that it IS possible, somehow. OBS does it, FRAPS does it, and others. On Linux it takes 3 seconds just to start the notepad, 2 seconds for the calculator, that is the worst of shit, haha. 2 Seconds for a linuxprompt! What kind of hardware you have that makes this faster?
In Windows it is instant even on dogslow hardware.
mmozeiko
You and your caches :)
Yes. About that. It is incredibly important.
Because if you can't make good use of it, then you might as well use an older PC. Because it is mainly that cache that sets CPUs apart. Inside their are all dogslow without the internal cache.
That's why programs that do not make well use of them, will run JUST AS SLOW on new processors. And in fact the reverse is also mostly true, that if you make good use of it, your software will run almost as fast on 10 year old machines. More or less.
So you may say that if your program runs slow, no hardware is going to help. The reverse of the popular opinion. But it is more so then ever. If your code is slow, it will remain slow, for the unforeseeable future. But if it's fast, it will be rather fast on almost all hardware. (I make an exception for the GPU - but this is true for the code running in th CPU):
It is not just speed that makes Windows bad, although I would argue that the speed of a number of things has been their fault for a long time, too. For example, the driver model (Direct3D's) for 3D hardware is awful, and ballpark causes a 50% speed hit, right. Now they are "fixing that" with Direct3D 12 after 10+ years of it being bad.
But speed is the least of my worries when using Windows. It's more about reliability, security, backwards compatibility, the failing of which are directly Microsoft's fault.
Because they a) designed the OS so that basically everything you might want to do requires administrator privileges, b) designed the driver models so that everything operates in the kernel, c) made a heinously complex and sprawling API that completely changes every few years, d) stopped trying to be backwards compatible with their own APIs and instead decided to start running "emulation" of the old OS as a "solution", e) never fixed the "DLL hell" problem, and instead made it ten times worse by moving to "side-by-side assemblies", f) made "the registry", a giant clusterfuck of unparseable and untraceable settings, the default way in which programs have to communicate their state to each other, g) failed to introduce a standard binary format for x64 that was able to include the x86 version in one file, h) introduced a whole new API _and C++ language extensions_ for Windows 8's UI system _which you have to get approval directly from Microsoft to even ship software that uses it_ and which has to go through their certification process every time you want to update it...
Do you want me to keep going?
I could literally go for hours listing things that Microsoft has done that have ruined this operating system and made it almost completely impossible for people to reliably ship good, well-behaved software here. It's deplorable. I have nothing but animus for Microsoft these days, they literally just spend all their time burning down what used to be my home :(
- Casey
But speed is the least of my worries when using Windows. It's more about reliability, security, backwards compatibility, the failing of which are directly Microsoft's fault.
Because they a) designed the OS so that basically everything you might want to do requires administrator privileges, b) designed the driver models so that everything operates in the kernel, c) made a heinously complex and sprawling API that completely changes every few years, d) stopped trying to be backwards compatible with their own APIs and instead decided to start running "emulation" of the old OS as a "solution", e) never fixed the "DLL hell" problem, and instead made it ten times worse by moving to "side-by-side assemblies", f) made "the registry", a giant clusterfuck of unparseable and untraceable settings, the default way in which programs have to communicate their state to each other, g) failed to introduce a standard binary format for x64 that was able to include the x86 version in one file, h) introduced a whole new API _and C++ language extensions_ for Windows 8's UI system _which you have to get approval directly from Microsoft to even ship software that uses it_ and which has to go through their certification process every time you want to update it...
Do you want me to keep going?
I could literally go for hours listing things that Microsoft has done that have ruined this operating system and made it almost completely impossible for people to reliably ship good, well-behaved software here. It's deplorable. I have nothing but animus for Microsoft these days, they literally just spend all their time burning down what used to be my home :(
- Casey
Kladdehelvete
When I click the System Settings icon, in Linux, it takes 4,5 seconds to show up. That's like 12-16 BILLION CYCLES! Chromium takes 8+ seconds. Libre Office, 7 seconds. And so on.
Again, that is not Linux. That is performance of application you are talking (KDE, Gnome or something else). For example, for me there is no Settings icon, or any icon at all. I use only window manager, not desktop environment. Changing some settings I can do as fast I can open terminal window (which is always open anyway) and open in text editor (vim) configuration file I want to modify.
Visual Studio 2013 on Win7 for me starts up in something like 3 seconds. But with that I'm not saying Windows is slow. Visual Studio is slow. Because notepad still opens up instantly. So don't say Linux is slow, because some application opens slowly. If some Linux desktop environment is slow check if you have configured something wrong. Maybe GPU drivers are missing or something.
You think all of this this would be possible on Linux?Yes. Why not? If Metro 2033, which is big 3D game that uses a lot of resources, can run >60fps on Linux, why can't simply 2D windows drawing code be possible on Linux? Don't make me laugh.
On Linux it takes 3 seconds just to start the notepad, 2 seconds for the calculatorAgain, something is wrong with your installation. For me starting any app on Linux is very fast. Terminal is instant. I can launch xterm terminal on i3 window manager with Win+Enter shortcut. And the moment keyboard registers Enter keypress, before even finger has released it, the terminal window is already open, visible and ready for input.
But if it's fast, it will be rather fast on almost all hardware. (I make an exception for the GPU - but this is true for the code running in th CPU):If your code is slow, it will remain slow, for the unforeseeable future. I disagree with this. Taking as example x86 architecture - code written for x86 CPUs 10 or 15 years ago has different requirements than today for high performance code. For example, looking at assembly level - instructions like "loop" or moving memory with "rep movsb" were important back then. Now it is not relevant, is more performant to do loop with "inc/dec + je/z" and copy memory with sse instructions (although not on latest Intel CPU's, there movsb is again fast). At one point it was fast to copy memory with fpu instructions (load double, store double), but nowadays it will be probably slow-ish. Back then it was important to execute as few as possible instructions, so it was ok to have code full with branches. Now it is more important to avoid branches rather than saving few extra instructions - basically if you can have branchless code, but have to recompute few things more, that is ok, performance will be better compared to code with branches. And that directly maps to higher level code (C&friends) - how you design your algorithms and lay out data. Do you avoid if statements, or do more SIMD-like code without branches? Indirect jumps/calls were cheap before, but now due to long x86 pipeline they are more expensive compared to alternatives. And this gets worse if you start comparing performance on CPU between "all architectures" (ARM vs x86, etc).
Edited by Mārtiņš Možeiko
on
cmuratori
It is not just speed that makes Windows bad, although I would argue that the speed of a number of things has been their fault for a long time, too. For example, the driver model (Direct3D's) for 3D hardware is awful, and ballpark causes a 50% speed hit, right. Now they are "fixing that" with Direct3D 12 after 10+ years of it being bad.
I did not know about this. I havent used Direct3D much, ( a little though, over the years), but I have never found it to be slow.
cmuratori
But speed is the least of my worries when using Windows.
Fact is that it is so fast, that you need to have considerable time and competance for even comming close. Now I am talking about the low level stuff. Not that I don't think you could do it faster, in a few spesific cases, if you could access hardware directly. But what "you" gained from this would be much less than "you" think.
But you need to acknowledge that the gaming industry didn't want that. Or we would have had that, already. Those guys are not going to be helpful to this at all. They never wanted to do it them selves. That's why DirectX / OpenGL exist in the first place. Gameprogrammers are C programmers. C programmers, in general want the "easy" way out, even if it really is not the "easy" way; unless they are forced to out of market conserns. Gameprogrammers are no special I have you know. While there exist a few real game programmers that are hardcore performanceprogrammers, and also hardcore programmers in general, they are not in any majority. And that is why things are the way there are. There will never be a "gamer" OS. Because there is no real incentive.
cmuratori
It's more about reliability, security, backwards compatibility, the failing of which are directly Microsoft's fault.
I could be with you on "security". The windows OS could be immunized in 10 minutes. And it's model is really a big joke. But Linux is no better here. At all. They both train people to let everything in. (Thats what the UAC really does). And Linux is actually worse today, comming with the firewall disabled. Now what both these OSes need, is that no programs will ever be allowed admin rights *at all*, unless they need to install a driver or something. And in that case you should be told about it. All other apps should have write access to 1 and only 1 directory. The one that they run from. If they only had readaccess to the rest, 99% of viral code would be killed, instantly. They should just be isolated from the rest of the system, by default. And allowed protected access to everthing they needed to run. But never gain rights to anything but the resources they need themself.
cmuratori
Because they a) designed the OS so that basically everything you might want to do requires administrator privileges, b) designed the driver models so that everything operates in the kernel, c) made a heinously complex and sprawling API that completely changes every few years, d) stopped trying to be backwards compatible with their own APIs and instead decided to start running "emulation" of the old OS as a "solution", e) never fixed the "DLL hell" problem, and instead made it ten times worse by moving to "side-by-side assemblies", f) made "the registry", a giant clusterfuck of unparseable and untraceable settings, the default way in which programs have to communicate their state to each other, g) failed to introduce a standard binary format for x64 that was able to include the x86 version in one file, h) introduced a whole new API _and C++ language extensions_ for Windows 8's UI system _which you have to get approval directly from Microsoft to even ship software that uses it_ and which has to go through their certification process every time you want to update it...
Well I don't like that any more than you do. About Admin I don't really agree. In win7 at least, I never need any admin access, nor do I use the registry. The exception is AWE. But I think that can be justified. But a better model needs to take form. Window 8 and 10 I don't know about. I am going to hang on to win7 until 2020 :D I will test the other versions. And I will learn what needs to be done. But I do not think we have reasons to believe MS fuck things up too badly. I am used to they comming with this and this rumours, and then it turns out it will not be like that. Win7 turned out pretty well. And despite poeple thinking XP was better, this is not really the case. Yes. there are problems. No you do not need to have them. Just don't use highlevel stuff.
cmuratori
Do you want me to keep going?
Yes, I do. I think I mainly agree to most of your points. But it also evident that noone else bothers as much as to launch anything better. I too hope for SteamOS. But you know, mixing two buisness models isn't necessarily great. What incentive would Valve have for also making it a super desktop OS? And why havent they learned that they must do it all from scratch, and stop trying to cut corners. As long as they think they can cut corners, they are just children, not really understanding the problem. And then they will never be able to compete.
cmuratori
I could literally go for hours listing things that Microsoft has done that have ruined this operating system and made it almost completely impossible for people to reliably ship good, well-behaved software here. It's deplorable. I have nothing but animus for Microsoft these days, they literally just spend all their time burning down what used to be my home :(
- Casey
I don't see that, since I see reliable games all the time. I know about the C runtime library problems. But the way I see it, that is also a problem with C programmers, and gameprogrammers. Most of them prefer ignorance. And only a few like yourself want to fix these problems. By the root. And that's the problem you will face, if like you say on the show, this is on your "maybe to do" list for the future, if that's what you said. You gonna face reality. And that is that 1 in a 1000 programmers care enough. But I bet it's more like 1 in a million. So such a project will never become reality. Because you would need to dig up 1000 programmers as good as yourself, in order to even begin solving this problem you see. And they all need be prepared to not be payed in like 20 years.
Edited by Livet Ersomen Strøm
on
I think Windows is a lot better than it used to be, I have been using Windows 8 since day 1 and I really like the direction they are going with WinRT. I like the interop model to talk between languages across the WinRT ABI. And I like the universal apps model of programming. I am looking forward to WinRT being fleshed out so that it can more fully replace Win32 (It's a little lacking at the moment, but this will come with time) And I absolutely love all the work being done with C#, not just by Microsoft but by everybody, there are C# game engines being developed now that are quite powerful and SharpDX (and SlimDX) allows me to work much more easily with DirectX. There is .net native and a few other native C# projects, which are really interesting too. C# will be much better when it's performance is refined to compete with C++. It's a much cleaner language and so much more enjoyable to use.
In the past I've found it quite difficult to work with Win32 and DirectX, they are quite clunky and VERY UGLY (C++ is also a little to blame). So I really appreciate the new approach to languages (providing first class access to C# development as well as C++). Which means it's easier to be just as expressive with C# as with C++. There are still some problems, like MS AMP not being provided equally to C# as it is to C++, I think that's a mistake on their part (MS). Clearly, there are still developers at Microsoft that make the mistake of thinking that only C++ is about performant software. I understand that there may be wrappers for AMP. Although what I found when using AMP was that under the new WinRT model it was quite easy and enjoyable to consume C++ code from a C# application, it was extremely easy and made sense. I'm pretty sure interop has been more difficult in the past, I did very little of it. But WinRT components allow me to mix languages in a really sensible way, so that i can build parts of an application in C#, and if necessary parts in C++, and It's straight forward to implement.
I can't praise WinRT and XAML enough, that is the way Windows needs to go (and I'm pretty sure it IS moving in that direction). Don't confuse the uptake of Windows 8 (the desktop) with Windows 8 (the platform). People hate on Windows 8 (although I love it, and as far as I'm concerned, Windows 7 is DONE!) but WinRT is fantastic, and it will replace Win32. IT WILL REPLACE Win32, if you don't believe it, you probably haven't used it and extrapolated the potential of that framework clearly in your mind. Some people might think that is a contentious suggestion, and it may be, sometimes my perspective is a little futurist.
Anybody that has looked at and thought about WinRT will not be surprised to see WinRT apps burst onto the desktop come Windows 10. And that is not bad, that's great.
No, I don't think Windows is really that bad, as an OS it's more stable then ever, my computer crashes SIGNIFICANTLY less than it used to (Win95/XP day). The software is top notch .. Visual Studio, Office, Photoshop, 3DSMax etc, Maya etc. And the programming environment is getting better, there are real options now, language wise, engine wise. And Microsoft is getting away from C and C++ a bit (which is such a relief)
It's not bad.
In the past I've found it quite difficult to work with Win32 and DirectX, they are quite clunky and VERY UGLY (C++ is also a little to blame). So I really appreciate the new approach to languages (providing first class access to C# development as well as C++). Which means it's easier to be just as expressive with C# as with C++. There are still some problems, like MS AMP not being provided equally to C# as it is to C++, I think that's a mistake on their part (MS). Clearly, there are still developers at Microsoft that make the mistake of thinking that only C++ is about performant software. I understand that there may be wrappers for AMP. Although what I found when using AMP was that under the new WinRT model it was quite easy and enjoyable to consume C++ code from a C# application, it was extremely easy and made sense. I'm pretty sure interop has been more difficult in the past, I did very little of it. But WinRT components allow me to mix languages in a really sensible way, so that i can build parts of an application in C#, and if necessary parts in C++, and It's straight forward to implement.
I can't praise WinRT and XAML enough, that is the way Windows needs to go (and I'm pretty sure it IS moving in that direction). Don't confuse the uptake of Windows 8 (the desktop) with Windows 8 (the platform). People hate on Windows 8 (although I love it, and as far as I'm concerned, Windows 7 is DONE!) but WinRT is fantastic, and it will replace Win32. IT WILL REPLACE Win32, if you don't believe it, you probably haven't used it and extrapolated the potential of that framework clearly in your mind. Some people might think that is a contentious suggestion, and it may be, sometimes my perspective is a little futurist.
Anybody that has looked at and thought about WinRT will not be surprised to see WinRT apps burst onto the desktop come Windows 10. And that is not bad, that's great.
No, I don't think Windows is really that bad, as an OS it's more stable then ever, my computer crashes SIGNIFICANTLY less than it used to (Win95/XP day). The software is top notch .. Visual Studio, Office, Photoshop, 3DSMax etc, Maya etc. And the programming environment is getting better, there are real options now, language wise, engine wise. And Microsoft is getting away from C and C++ a bit (which is such a relief)
It's not bad.
If you're willing to spend some time reading and listening:
http://robertoconcerto.blogspot.c...to-fix-windows-8-development.html
http://mollyrocket.com/jacs/jacs_0003_0001.html
http://robertoconcerto.blogspot.c...to-fix-windows-8-development.html
http://mollyrocket.com/jacs/jacs_0003_0001.html
DaleKim
If you're willing to spend some time reading and listening:
http://robertoconcerto.blogspot.c...to-fix-windows-8-development.html
http://mollyrocket.com/jacs/jacs_0003_0001.html
(rant ahead. just ignore).
Is that just for RT ?
Because I really dont care about WinRT. I was one of the first to have a 1K phone, and the way I see it they are all shit. I used mine, every day for 1 year, all day long, posting in facebook. And thats all they are useful for. But I got eyestrain because of it. Most of the software in it is shit. It's like basic programs coded in a hurry. The thinking behind it is shit as well. And it is targeted to *consumers*. You cannot work on that shit. Not in any resonable sense. Anything that is target at consumers like that, is bound to fail. Just like TV failed, or is failing. At once we had something better, everyone leaves shit behind. The only things to survive the long haul, are REAL THINGS. If you dont make real stuff, you don't count. And then, the worse API they can give you the better.
The thing is that after some time, you get really tired of those things, and you realize the technology is nowwhere near good enough for people to actually use. Overheating, locking, and batterylife is short. Cant be used in the sun, and so on and so forth. Useless. And all the extra gimicks with the measuring your heartrate and so on? Laughable! Thats fun for like 1 hour. It's RETARDED, is what it is.
These toys are a gimmick, and their popularity will soon turn to hate. They will boil down to be devices for exchanging text messages, and maybe for using skype. And maybe for playing solitair, and that kind of games. And looking up some info, when at the dentist. This is not a plattform for launching a real game, or other real consumer products. This is a plattform for making shit.
Someday, and that day will come soon; even if most people are like 10 years behind me, on almost all of the trends (not joking, it's been mostly true sofar); noone will buy them anymore, because they will realize that all these things do is making your life harder. I would never even think about coding for such a retarted plattform. And if WinRT is like this, it's faith is sealed. It will die, once the initial "cool" factor of "smart" phones are over.
Because once you get past the coolness of having a computer that small, you realize that they are extremely weak, completely useless for doing anything real, and that they will hurt your eyesight if used to much.
In my phone, I could, at the day it was launched, send a HD video directly to my TV. from my phone, wireless. Wow how cool.. right?? You know how much I use it for that now? NADA. You know how much I use it for changing channels on my Tv? NADA. You wanna know how much I use it for facebook? NADA. I don't use it for anything but making phonecalls, because I'm dead tired of constantly recharging the shit. I dont care about my heartrate unless it will be to late already, and then I wount be able to use my phone, ahahhaha. You know how much I look at the stores now for new "apps"?
NADA NADA NADA!!!! The first 2 month I was there every day. And I found a lot of really COOL software. That I just don't really need. To have in my phone.
It looks to me like the new Surface Pro 3 could be the right direction. But they are still not there. Prising for the shit is the worst strategy I ever saw. It tells a very telling tale of the future with these things. The way I see it they will NEVER get there, because even when it works, flawlessly, with 1 week batterycapasity, and you can play the latest, greatest games in it, it STILL will not compare to using my large screen TV for my PC. With a wireless keyboard. Right smack in the middle of the living room. Even if the voice recognition would get as good as a person, it will never be as smart as a person. And most persons are actually pretty fucking retarded(just kidding kids). So NO. I do NOT want to talk at my computer. I will be constantly fined 100 credits, for being in violation of some "be well" (google/ms/name your fav retards here) - moron act.
And they are nowhere near such batterytimes, and you cant play serious games with it. And the userinterface is only useful when you want todo something really quickly. Even if they was perfectly running, you still would not like to sit and point at a device like that for 16 hours a day. The stylus will be useful though, but not until battarylife is a week at least. A month. If it get's to that, a month, then I better take it seriously. But right now I don't see any long term failure for the PC plattform. It looked that way at first, maybe. But after I used mine, for a year, every single day, all day long, I found it to become more and more of an annoyment, and less and less fun. It may take common man some time to catch up. Because most people don't have the oportunity to use it as much as I did. But that time will come. I think it will come, even if they make a perfect Surface. Even then it will be not the prefered device for entertainment. Because due to the sun, you can't really use it outside. And inside, you will have a bigscreen gigantic TV. And so on.
I feel much the same about occulus, btw. As promising as that sounds, who wants to sit around looking like a zoombie geek, with that shit on your head, like in his own world? And if you read between the lines of Valves blog, it cannot even be done. They need (or want) 1000 frames a sec. But a human can only see like 75-90 or something? A gimmick. A toy. Not for the long haul.
Googleglass. Same shit. You would like to look like a moron walking around with that shit? A lot of people would probably just attack you, and beat you up for doing so. And when they do, I will read about it, on my PC :D
IF all of Windows, including the desktop becomes as bad as it says in these blogs, and the podcast, then Microsoft are committing suiside. And in that case I would be the first person to voluntair to help build a real OS.
When I say REAL. I mean letting people access to the facts. They true thing. A plattform that does not allow that, will have a peak in the markedplace, and then it will be dead. Nomatter how it LOOKS, especially in the media.
People really want what is real. Real means then; things you NEED. The things that actually make your life better. Fact and details makes developers lifes better. I see other people do like me. They play with new tech, and then they leave it behind. The apps they come back to are for simple communication. And forgettable games that you play in the dentist office, or waiting for a bus.
You cannot make performant software in the future, unless you have tools that allow you to optimize your data to work well with the CPU. And there is no way to make that happen on a general case. It can only happen on spesific problems. The way CPU development is going, there is no real reason why you would want highlevel tools for building the future. If you want more performance, which I guess everybody really wants, then you MUST deal with the tiniest of details. And this will become increasingly difficult unless something dramatic happens to the cost of cachememory, and everything can run on the CPU. And, in addition, that CPU cores becomes like a casilliion times faster.
Mmozeiko:
I really find no reason to take your words about linux. I use the latest version. It uses binary drivers from NVIDIA. On reasonably performent hardware. Windows 8 runs very well on the same hardware.
Not saying it is all shit. No it is not. There is a reason why I use Linux now in this PC, and that is because, not counting all the terrible slow software, and most of it actually broken too, Linux is convinient. Because the main software I use works here. Firefox, Chromium and VLC.
But clearly, there are signs that they try to be something they are not. The main Desktop OS. They shouldn't try to be like Microsoft. They should stick with their own.
What Linux does tons better then MS, is the installation process. It could be made a lot better, but for me one of the main conserns about an OS is that it is quick to reinstall. In most cases a reinstall solves all your problems. And takes less time then even searching for what the real problem could be, once you have one.
Linux Ubunty has made this easy. So easy that I *prefer* installing it, over Windows. I actually DREAD installing windows now. Thats the main reason I have Linux. It's perfect for me, on the PC I use for consuming online media. I read all news, and watch all youtube videos and so on, on my Linux pc. If windows was as easy to install as linux, and by default you could just put in the CD, and make it do everything in it's own, I would not bother with Linux. Because for me there is no reason too.
Linux Ubunty (and I also used several others) cannot, on this PC guess right at what is the primary and secondary monitor. I mean stuff like that is annoying. I also have to reconfigure ufw each time I install. But compared to Windows, Linux is tons better, overall, at these spesific things. That why I use it. I do not want it to perform TILING 2.0 like windows does. That's not a useful feature at all. It's retarded. Everything that an OS force a user todo, at a time he does not want to, is retarded. TILING 2.0 only annoys me. And in fact the only time I notice it is there, is when it annoyingly wrongly guesses where I want to place my windows. Thats it. It is ONLY an anoying feature. It has no upside. At all.
Windows TILING ENGING 2.0 is completely retarded, fake and studid. And is exactly the kind of interface changes that nobody wants, because it solves a problem nobody has. We had tiling in windows 3.0. And I never felt any need for it. It is retarded. And only that.
The reason I would not use Linux for development or for playing games should be obvious. Linux may be performant once a program has finally started. But they need to work on the preprocess. Even if I guess I could buy a faster harddrive, I know all my apps that I use for development starts instantly from a coldboot. On my dev pc, VStudio dont take 3 seconds, it takes like 8 or 10 seconds. Because I don't have a SSD drive. But all other software is instant. In linux, all software has a significant load time, and it seems it does not help the second time. This is not a fault on the software in Linux. It is true that it is the fault of software in Windows. But in Linux, it is for all software. That all of it incur some latency during boottime, that is caused by the OS. Don't be dishonest with me. This is true for ALL of the PC's in which I ran Linux. And by now it is pretty much a dousin.
Now add to that that most users just smile involuntary at the mere mention of Linux.